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I
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gatri the
prison Officers Association has been
warning for years that our jails
although some of them are no longer our
jails but private businesses were a
volcano waiting to erupt their warnings
were not only ignored but their rights
were taken away from them by the John
Major government and despite Promises to
the contrary not restored by Tony Blair
or Gordon Brown what happened next is
history already the uprising in the G4S
private prison in Birmingham last week
may just be a taste of what's to come
and what's gone wrong in Britain's
prisons joining us now is Steve Gillan
General Secretary of the Union the
prison Officers Association so that we
can tackle this subject Steve thanks for
joining us I mean I mean you are
something of a Seer a clairvoyant
because many years ago I interviewed you
on radio and you predicted exactly
what's happening now why were the
members why were the workers ignored by
the government on this yeah well firstly
George thanks for inviting me on and
you're absolutely right we did do an
interview some time ago I think it was
about
2010 when the coalition government were
embarking uh on D ruction of Public
Services by uh imposing uh Draconian
budget cuts uh and we warned at that
time that if you keep doing that then
you will have uh eruptions on your hand
within the prison system and that's
exactly what's happened an eruption is a
a good description of it it is volcanic
in character would it be fair to say
that what you've got is too many
prisoners not enough uh of your members
the prison officers and therefore no
attempt really meaningfully to
rehabilitate to uh reform the
individuals in the prison so it's just a
pressure cooker that's in a nutshell in
effect George if you actually take it
back to the strangeways riots um in the
early 90s uh Lord wolf done a report
into that and he says if you haven't got
enough staff and there there's um
overcrowding then and it's a recipe for
disaster now Lord wolf made uh a
recommendation uh that said it should be
written into statute that no prison
should be
overcrowded and it was ignored by
successive governments it was ignored by
the conservatives it was ignored by
Labor uh and they just kept cramming
people in uh to our jails but at the
same time cutting staff numbers now
anybody with a uh bit of cin sense half
we realize that that is absolutely a
recipe for disaster now Ru on to uh pre
2010 we've got a situation where we had
different secretaries of state with had
Kenneth Clark wanting a rehabilitation
Revolution we then had uh Chris gring uh
who failed miserably in the clamor by
the right-wing media uh to lock them up
and throw away the key and to get tough
uh on uh individuals within prisons so
that was to satisfy the likes of the sun
and the male and all the right-wing
media then we had Michael G um and now
we've got was truss so the only thing
that's actually been down Hills since
Kenneth Clark well absolutely because
the reality is George you know we've
we've sat and watched and we've warned
them time and time again and their own
stats tell the story themselves you know
record amounts of su suicides in prisons
record amount of self harm in prisons
record amount of drugs assaults on staff
as prisoner on prisoner assaults you
couldn't make this up and they' got
8,000 less prison officers than we had
in
2010 dealing with this crisis you can
only describe it as a crisis and we've
seen it at hmp Bedford where there was a
riot a few weeks back and now we've seen
hmp Birmingham so this is Hell on Earth
within Britain yeah and many of them I
mean I assum many of them will return
into society what existing
rehabilitation program is there well the
majority you're absolutely right to
mention that because the majority of
people in prisons will it sometime be
released back into society it's it's
only some that won't so the reality is
instead of warehousing people what we
should be doing is actually
rehabilitating them and stop talking
about it give prison officers the tools
to actually do the job and the reality
is I think we'll find a much safer
Society then when people are
rehabilitated properly but the truth of
the matter is much more has got to be
done before individuals get into the
criminal justice system so for example
you've got to uh deal with with drug
addicts youve got to deal with alcohol
abuse uh this isn't rocket science most
crimes are committed through alcohol
or drugs uh mentally ill people should
be diverted away from prison yeah and
not mix with the others absolutely right
but we've got to get the basics into
schools to educate our children the
right from wrong and so forth but more
than that you got to give people hope of
decent jobs decent housing decent
education so that you steer them away
from the criminal justice system in the
first place because once they're in that
cycle it seems to be a revolving door
absolutely I mean neither of us because
I know you uh I can say that uh our
liberals uh were not uh fooled that uh
all the people in prison are are teddy
bears if only we treated them nicely so
just in case anybody's in any doubt
about this the result of these cuts a
Savage reduction of 8,000 fewer prison
officers is that territories inside the
prisons become effectively under the
control of gangs and criminals uh by
definition they're criminals they're in
there uh and if the guards are not there
can't be there cuz they're not in the
numbers The Gangs take over and
therefore you're getting prisons where
drugs are being delivered and sold often
forced sales to other prisoners this is
why your word hell uh is is uh
appropriate um so we're not asking
people necessarily to buy our
perspective of prison reform penal
reform even from the point of view of
the state's only most basic interest of
keeping order in the prisons this is a
disaster it is a disaster uh because you
you just can't cope I mean you mentioned
the drugs there George uh we've moved on
to uh new psychoactive active substances
such as space and black mamba never even
heard of them totally synthetic drugs
that are devastating prisoners are dying
from taking them because each batch is
totally different they used to be called
legal highs and there's nothing legal
about them it's destroying people's
lives not just in prisons but in a
society as well and our NHS is actually
the used to nickname
uh some of the ambulances that were
coming into prisons ambulance because
there was that many prisoners who were
taking black mamba uh been fed to our
NHS it was clogging up every um
ambulance in the system in certain areas
which is quite frightening because these
people uh who were taking them were
turning into extreme violent people who
may not have been violent in the first
place and some prisoners were getting
were using some the weaker ones as get
pigs to try and test the drugs out first
to see what reactions they have uh as
you probably well know drugs can be a
currency in prisons so what might cost5
outside in the street will actually cost
about
£500 or or even more depending on the
strength of the drug so we get real
problems but you wouldn't have that
problem if they were running the drug
treatment
programs uh they had the correct amount
of staff to do the basics of the job I
mean one of the chief inspectors
reported that it was easier to get drugs
than it was a clean
pillowcase in a prison now that's the
sort of society that we've got we should
be ashamed of ourselves quite it's known
that the Tories know the price of
everything and the value of nothing but
they don't seem to know the price even
of this on the principle that a stitch
in time saves n you'd think you could
persuade them to employ a few thousand
more prison officers and save tens of
millions when prisons go up and smoke
well that's absolutely correct so you
you look at a situation where they've
taken hundreds of million pounds out the
prison system and then you look at hmp
Birmingham where that Riot could run
into millions of pounds so they're not
actually saving anything uh by having
those Draconian cups because you're
right you reap what you s and they're
certainly uh reaping what they're s now
and I can't see it getting any better
and that brings me to another Point um
when you um pay people not the going
rate so for example a new prisoner
prison officer coming into the job is
paid 19,000 a year they are not going to
stay in a vient environment because they
can go elsewhere and get the same sort
of money or even more money for doing
that so they've got to put the
professional
back into the job uh they've got to have
a decent pension age
68 uh retirement age for a prison
officer is nonsensical it's absolutely
nonsensical so you pointed out at the
beginning of the program that uh our
Union were banned from taking any form
of industrial action and it's actually
illegal for a prison officer to induce
another prison officer to take any form
of action now that came in in
1994 uh under the conservative
government and you're right to say that
labor didn't repeal it under Blair or
promise they would they did promise that
they would and they also promised that
they wouldn't have any private prisons
uh cuz I remember Jack straw actually
calling uh private prisons back in 1994
95 morally repugnant indeed morally
repugnant that only time for that last
Point um I know you've got members in
both sectors but most of the public
watching this will think it is morally
repugnant that a prison instead of what
it's supposed to be can actually be a
profit-making business for private
individuals and that's what we've got
10% of Britain's prisons in private
hands ab and it does make you wonder uh
about reducing overcrowding and
different things when you actually look
at the private companies their
shareholders make money out of
incarceration and it brings me to a
point that happened in America in
Mississippi
where judges uh were uh committing fraud
taken backhanders from private companies
in America for walking up more and more
children and I think the judges actually
received a prison sentence themselves
three years yeah they went to jail now
is that what we want a sort of system
here cop in America I don't think we'll
get anything to learn from the Americans
actually we really don't not on many
things and certainly not on prisons
absolutely Steve Gillan of the prison
Officers Association thanks very much
for coming on board the Sputnik coming
up after the break he was a fine young
cannibal indeed Roland Lee gift don't
miss
it welcome back to Sputnik he was a fine
young cannibal indeed the epitome of
cool voted in 1990 by People magazine as
one of the 50 most beautiful people in
the world iconic hits like she drives me
crazy and good thing rocked many a kasba
and then so far as most members of the
public were concerned he disappeared
except of course he didn't like all of
us he lived his life but until I saw him
in my audience at a recent talk I gave I
had no idea he was still performing and
wow is he still performing and I thought
that a wider audience young as well as
old deserve to hear what happened next
so I'm glad to welcome on board the
Sputnik Roland gift it was my Christmas
gift to run into you because I was a
huge fan of your voice and I'm still a
huge fan of your voice but I lost track
of you and I suspect most of the people
watching this also did your band was so
big and then so far as most people were
concerned until Jules Holland hook up
few years ago uh you were off the music
scene did did you consciously leave uh
the music scene did it leave you what
happened I think it was a bit of both um
we we did have like really enormous
success quite quickly as well a lot of
people said you know you have to tour
America endlessly to to have that and we
didn't you know we did two tours and
then we had a really big album and I
think it was quite a big amount to
process how were you at the time about
28 you w a teenager oh wasn't KN I'd
kind of had a bit of a life I'd done all
my drugs before then so I didn't have to
go through that i' got that out my
system um but I hadn't had that kind of
attention and when we did our first
album we were based in Birmingham I used
to I was living in London but I'd
commute up to Birmingham we we were
based there when we did the second album
we were based in London and then we
thought it'd be a good idea to go to New
York to do the third album um but that
didn't really work out so well you know
it was quite um quite a distracting
place and work ethics or what just this
everybody comes I mean there is a place
of where dream come true know that's
what they want to claim I think New York
I think is a great place if you've got
your stuff and you want to take your
stuff to Market or you know just or to
your public but to actually sort of
create it wasn't such a great place and
we distractions too many distract just
just the energy of the place too many
people finding you're the most beautiful
man in the world you you would it was
exhausting just walking down the street
to the shops because people would just
have even not because people would know
that you were famous but just people had
so much to say about themselves often as
well just they would kind of like unload
on you and a kind of you know their
psychic energy would kind of unload on
you well my great grandmother immigrated
from New York to Dundee now that is a
perverse decision but your move to New
York uh was kind of the beginning of the
end of f Young Cannibals it kind of was
it kind of was and we had this um we
also had a a strange experience as well
where we got robbed at gunpoint oh my
god um we we we we entered this uh
apartment on Breo and
Broadway and uh I used to go to the uh
drama classes at Cari Hall and I was
doing some scene study with this girl
called Deborah Joe on a Sunday and we
would just sort of chatting and our
first son was sort of lying on the floor
and I heard this sort of
sniveling sound of sniveling coming down
the
hall and uh I saw Louise my wife um and
she was she was sobbing and then this
guy stepped out from behind it and and
he goes like that with his hand and he
shows his gun and he says get down on
the
floor and then he says not you you get
up um tie them up so I'm looking for
stuff to tie them up so I rip out a
phone wire I tie them up and then he
takes me and we go from room to room
looking for shiny stuff and all the time
I'm kind of thinking you know do I make
a move do I not and then we go into the
room where Deborah Joe's tied up Louise
is tied up um he gets deborra Joe to tie
my legs up and he says uh yeah I'm going
to kill you where's where's the rest of
the stuff and we there's no more stuff
and then he uh disappears did they find
the perpetrator I don't know cuz we we
had a couple of um we had a couple of
guys go go around with us who were armed
for the next period that we were there
cuz I didn't know if they'd Rec if the
guy had recognized me if he was part of
a gang if he was going to come back you
know steal the bait you know we we
didn't know what was going on at all uh
acting
was uh an interesting Avenue down which
you went not that many front men in in
bands uh have done that did you get a
different kind of satisfaction from that
I sort of started out doing drama really
before music before music I mean when I
moved to London it was I was thinking
about going to drama school but then you
had to uh audition and you have to pay
for auditions and you have to audition
in more than one place whereas if to do
music you just sort of you're with a two
or three people you say you're a group
and you are cuz you say you are yeah
that's and then you can you know you can
go out and do gigs much much it's it's
more easy than to put on a um you know
production
so yeah although you know I thought I'd
do music music and then go on to drama
it was kind of music just sort of took
off really well you were uh
stratospheric uh uh for a period uh your
music was absolutely everywhere I've
just been playing She Drives Me Crazy uh
in the car uh and remembering that once
upon a time you know I would sing that
every day every time it it came on the
on on the radio so you're back on the
road you've recently played London and
Birmingham what's next well we did sort
of three Christmas shows sort of three
Christmas crackers we call them and at
each show we've recorded the show um
record not not visually just just the um
the music yeah and that'll be for a live
album um we we'll see what we've got
from the three shows you know we might
be able to get one album just from one
show which would be great but we can use
bits of different shows and that will be
for a live album um next year any idea
when next year I mean no I me you should
put it in the diary I tell you uh I mean
you have been away a long time but you
haven't lost anything uh having heard
you now you haven't lost anything at
all so when when can we buy it yeah four
month well vinyl I think vinyl is very
popular I think people of my generation
definitely it's got to be vinyl I was
going to say that to you forget all this
download stuff that's very last year I
think people want to have a thing
they Roland gift thanks for coming on
the sputnic and as a special Christmas
gift from us on the Sputnik we give you
Roland Lee gift and his friends the song
is I'm not the man I used to be but
trust me he is
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when I'm in
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trouble I out of
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Step if my
balance has been
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upset are there's
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feeling I can't
accept there's one
thing helps me to
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forget wonder what she's
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thinking wonder why I'm
drinking but it's plain to see
I'm not the man I used to
be if life were
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easy and didn't
ask then tease
me I take things
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back I could
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stop to understand
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what makes
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me man I
am wonder what she
thinking wonder why I'm
drinking but it's PL to
see I'm not the man I used to be on oh
no such a
shame I can't
explain why I'm not the man I used to
be I've lost
days that won't come
[Music]
back Miss
memories fing
fast now I should
say the ones I
have watch the
use when most of
them wonder what she's thinking
[Laughter]
wonder why I'm
drinking but it's plain to
see I'm not the man I you no no no I'm
not the
man it's such a shame I'm not the
man I can't explain I'm not the
man what I'm not
man I used to be don't know my name I'm
not
the you know my name I'm not the
man can you help me S I'm not the
man I'm not the
man I used to
be just
fantastic you really are the man you
used to to be and that is it I'm afraid
and All That Remains is for us on behalf
of Sputnik to wish you a Merry Christmas
Merry Christmas everybody happy
Christmas
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